Vaccination debate

I agree and disagree :D
The way things look like at the moment, with virus mutating at a pretty energetic pace, comparison to annual flu jab is inescapable.
The problem is, covid isn't flu. For one it affects nervous system in ways that we don't fully comprehend yet (interesting podcast on the topic here:
(https://www.npr.org/2021/01/12/956020657/how-covid-19-affects-the-brain) and then there's the 'long covid'.
Secondly there's the question of how long will the immunity last (three months?)
Thirdly, even though we have a flu jab, in season the hospitals are pretty much operating at capacity (at least that's my understanding, feel free to correct me on this). So I assume if the NHS has to account for an annual covid season (on top of flu), we are talking about possible changes to seasonal capacity of hospitals.
Don't get me wrong. Given an option of getting a vaccine or not, I'm there with my sleeve rolled up (even bearing in mind all those efficacy numbers are press releases not peer reviewed studies)
It just may not be an immediate silver bullet everyone is hoping for. I would be happier if there was also something else out there (remember Tamiflu during H1N1? )
Perhaps there is something else out there......

 
On the original question, I do think teachers and school workers should move up the queue. They are not a huge group in national terms and include some over-60s (moi, e.g.) and 50-60s so would not involve pushing a huge number of people down the queue. It would facilitate a more confident and long lasting reopening of schools and save parents' sanity
the reason schools are closed is due to transmission by kids who add 0.5 to the R not H&S of the staff, so vaccinating staff will not solve the problem.
 
As for the COVID vaccine groups, in my view the only ''correct'' option would be to keep everyone at home until everyone is vaccinated because as we have seen in the news etc, people can still be carriers even if they aren't sick so technically no-one is safe until EVERYONE is vaccinated :p

That is unrealistic though and I understand why they are putting the most vulnerable to serious disease first, however I do feel that if schools are to re-open this year, I think that school staff need to be vaccinated as well, at the very least, teachers and classroom assistants who have unavoidable contact with students day in, day out. At least we as tech's have a level of disconnect from them for the most part.
We have been asked to put our names forward to be put on list for the 'left over vaccine' that they have in vacc centres at the end of the day, either from people who didn't turn up or just the extra doses that can be left at end. Vaccine centre will call us & we have approx 15 mins to get there before close.
A lot of schools are being asked to do this now. A neighbour who is a care home worker told me to call vacc centres & ask to be put on list too. ( I haven't as I don't want to queue jump)
On another note, I heard another neighbour talking on the phone in his front garden ( he does this very loudly constantly) arguing that he should be on vaccine priority list as he is extremely vulnerable ( he isn't, I know), that he works in a care home ( he doesn't) & that he could provide proof. (on this I have no doubt as he is know for his wheeling & dealing) Sigh, this pandemic has certainly shown the extremes of selfless & completely selfish behaviour in people.
 
We have been asked to put our names forward to be put on list for the 'left over vaccine' that they have in vacc centres at the end of the day, either from people who didn't turn up or just the extra doses that can be left at end. Vaccine centre will call us & we have approx 15 mins to get there before close.
A lot of schools are being asked to do this now. A neighbour who is a care home worker told me to call vacc centres & ask to be put on list too. ( I haven't as I don't want to queue jump)
On another note, I heard another neighbour talking on the phone in his front garden ( he does this very loudly constantly) arguing that he should be on vaccine priority list as he is extremely vulnerable ( he isn't, I know), that he works in a care home ( he doesn't) & that he could provide proof. (on this I have no doubt as he is know for his wheeling & dealing) Sigh, this pandemic has certainly shown the extremes of selfless & completely selfish behaviour in people.

It certainly has been a very VERY polarizing time. From the toilet roll hoarding to vaccine queue jumping, it seems people will do anything to get one over on someone else :/
 
A fantastic video about why the vaccine was so quick!

Perfect to debunk all of the main counterpoints usually brought up.

I feel like this should be shared far and wide

Thanks for sharing this video, it is always good to be provided with more information.
However, it has not reduced the underlying concerns that I am feeling towards this new vaccine type. I am no expert on any of this, so maybe I need to do more research to put my mind at rest, but my worry is that inducing an immune response to something that our own cells are producing is just asking for an autoimmune response to develop. Quite rightly, our priority at the moment is finding ways to protect ourselves from Covid-19, and I personally wouldn't refuse this vaccine based on my concerns, because I think the immunity it is providing is highly valuable and necessary right now, but I am concerned that we will see some evidence in the future of longer-term side effects that will only become evident with time.
Perhaps with all this spare time on my hands I am just overthinking. I really hope that my concerns turn out to be unjustified.
 

Nick Mitchener

COMMITTEE
My partner has his first jab Monday, I will likely get one in March, I have been bumped down a group from 6 to 7. I'm not going anywhere so that's fine, my partner has to go to hospital sometimes so pleased he will have his first.

Very sad to see some of the comments on here, we are supposed to be a scientific community.

When I get offered a jab I will take it, but I am happy to wait my turn. At the end f may I move back up to group 6 anyway.
 
my worry is that inducing an immune response to something that our own cells are producing is just asking for an autoimmune response to develop.
This is a very interesting point and it makes me want to do some digging to find more info on it.
My personal worry is that there is some evidence of people having covid for the 2nd time (after their natural immunity has worn off) and the 2nd run of it being more serious.
Does that mean that after our vaccine induced immunity has worn off (3months? 6 months?) some of us might be more at risk of showing serious symptoms when infected?
 
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paul r

COMMITTEE
I feel there is a case for school staff and other front line workers being prioritised once the over 50's have all been offered the vaccine, as these are the people who are dying.
I am not dead yet Mollytwodips :)

Amazingly I have not had it and have tested negative for antibodies . I know so many people who have had it though.I have been in the same corridor as children who later developed Covid!! I obviously wear a mask and try to keep as far away as possible!

but hanging on for the vaccine i am late 50's so looking like April or May !
 
This is a very interesting point and it makes me do some digging to find more info on it.
My personal worry is that there is some evidence of people having covid for the 2nd time (after their natural immunity has worn off) and the 2nd run of it being more serious.
Does that mean that after our vaccine induced immunity has worn off (3months? 6 months?) some of us might be more at risk of showing serious symptoms when infected?
an understandable concern to be sure, while im not an expert either, here is what I have gathered so far:

As with any vaccine of similar construction, the immune response is only triggered when exposed to something it doesn't recognise. Yes, these vaccines have the small section of code to allow it into our cell but thats only the caps, the center section is still different enough to trigger the response. The cells are not triggered by the human coded section, these only allow the rna to be injested as seen in the video I linked.

So in my mind at least, there is no chance of this causing an autoimmune issue because our immune system is not going to conflate the human coded section with the virus, put two and two together and start attacking anything with the same coded section.

There is of course, an issue in people who already have compromised immune systems or autoimmune disorders but I am sure alternative vaccine types are already being worked on (similar to how folks allergic to egg can get vaccines that are different than those made using egg etc), but for now it still makes sense to give everyone the mRNA vaccines who are safe to receive them. These alternative vaccines may take years and may become the ones that people in vulnerable groups get as annual boosters, same as the flu jab, but for now I'm over the moon that we even have two on the go already.

Yes I'm not an expert, yes there is still possibility of it all going t*ts up, so I understand the concerns raised, however I also feel that is important to have hope, and to take the chance, as its the only option we have for now and I would personally rather take the risk than go another year of lockdown-yo-yo-ing.

Even if the vaccine only lasts us six months, if its six months of safety to be able to see our loved ones and friends again without risk for that time, I am taking it. Even if it was only a week, if someone came to me and said 'you can have this vaccine but it will only protect you for a week' i'd take it just to be able to go and see people to recharge the mental health batteries before going back to isolation.

A more hopeful view though is that even if it only lasts 6 months or whatever, if everyone gets it and the cases drop to near zero then so will the R number meaning that the cases will be managable and now that we know more about the virus and are able to trace better (within reason, lol), I feel like if the daily totals came down to double figures, it would be easy enough to control (assuming the govt actually tries new variants entering etc)

I understand that I'm not an expert by any means, I'm not trying to be a mouthpiece for big pharma or anything like that, but I have been following the research with interest since the beginning of this whole hoohaa so at least am hopefully able to help alleviate some of the concerns that people rightfully have.
 
an understandable concern to be sure, while im not an expert either, here is what I have gathered so far:

As with any vaccine of similar construction, the immune response is only triggered when exposed to something it doesn't recognise. Yes, these vaccines have the small section of code to allow it into our cell but thats only the caps, the center section is still different enough to trigger the response. The cells are not triggered by the human coded section, these only allow the rna to be injested as seen in the video I linked.

So in my mind at least, there is no chance of this causing an autoimmune issue because our immune system is not going to conflate the human coded section with the virus, put two and two together and start attacking anything with the same coded section.

There is of course, an issue in people who already have compromised immune systems or autoimmune disorders but I am sure alternative vaccine types are already being worked on (similar to how folks allergic to egg can get vaccines that are different than those made using egg etc), but for now it still makes sense to give everyone the mRNA vaccines who are safe to receive them. These alternative vaccines may take years and may become the ones that people in vulnerable groups get as annual boosters, same as the flu jab, but for now I'm over the moon that we even have two on the go already.

Yes I'm not an expert, yes there is still possibility of it all going t*ts up, so I understand the concerns raised, however I also feel that is important to have hope, and to take the chance, as its the only option we have for now and I would personally rather take the risk than go another year of lockdown-yo-yo-ing.

Even if the vaccine only lasts us six months, if its six months of safety to be able to see our loved ones and friends again without risk for that time, I am taking it. Even if it was only a week, if someone came to me and said 'you can have this vaccine but it will only protect you for a week' i'd take it just to be able to go and see people to recharge the mental health batteries before going back to isolation.

A more hopeful view though is that even if it only lasts 6 months or whatever, if everyone gets it and the cases drop to near zero then so will the R number meaning that the cases will be managable and now that we know more about the virus and are able to trace better (within reason, lol), I feel like if the daily totals came down to double figures, it would be easy enough to control (assuming the govt actually tries new variants entering etc)

I understand that I'm not an expert by any means, I'm not trying to be a mouthpiece for big pharma or anything like that, but I have been following the research with interest since the beginning of this whole hoohaa so at least am hopefully able to help alleviate some of the concerns that people rightfully have.
I totally agree with you BioBee, these vaccines have given us hope. As I said, I would have it if it is was offered. My step-dad has already had it and I hope that my mum will also get it soon. In this awful situation, its benefits far outweigh any concerns that may or may not develop as a result of it. I cannot wait for the time when we are able to spend quality time with our loved ones without the fear of what we may be passing to them.
 
my HOD's mum had the vaccine, and she was so unwell from it, she went into the hospital, and apparently caught the blasted covid from there. her husband who didnt even go to the hospital caught it from her when she came home and as HOD is looking after his parents while working from home, he has caught it too... still unsure if it was the vaccine that caused her to be really unwell, or that she was carrier for covid before the vaccine. I suppose it's going to affect everyone differently.
 
an understandable concern to be sure, while im not an expert either, here is what I have gathered so far:

As with any vaccine of similar construction, the immune response is only triggered when exposed to something it doesn't recognise. Yes, these vaccines have the small section of code to allow it into our cell but thats only the caps, the center section is still different enough to trigger the response. The cells are not triggered by the human coded section, these only allow the rna to be injested as seen in the video I linked.

So in my mind at least, there is no chance of this causing an autoimmune issue because our immune system is not going to conflate the human coded section with the virus, put two and two together and start attacking anything with the same coded section.

There is of course, an issue in people who already have compromised immune systems or autoimmune disorders but I am sure alternative vaccine types are already being worked on (similar to how folks allergic to egg can get vaccines that are different than those made using egg etc), but for now it still makes sense to give everyone the mRNA vaccines who are safe to receive them. These alternative vaccines may take years and may become the ones that people in vulnerable groups get as annual boosters, same as the flu jab, but for now I'm over the moon that we even have two on the go already.

Yes I'm not an expert, yes there is still possibility of it all going t*ts up, so I understand the concerns raised, however I also feel that is important to have hope, and to take the chance, as its the only option we have for now and I would personally rather take the risk than go another year of lockdown-yo-yo-ing.

Even if the vaccine only lasts us six months, if its six months of safety to be able to see our loved ones and friends again without risk for that time, I am taking it. Even if it was only a week, if someone came to me and said 'you can have this vaccine but it will only protect you for a week' i'd take it just to be able to go and see people to recharge the mental health batteries before going back to isolation.

A more hopeful view though is that even if it only lasts 6 months or whatever, if everyone gets it and the cases drop to near zero then so will the R number meaning that the cases will be managable and now that we know more about the virus and are able to trace better (within reason, lol), I feel like if the daily totals came down to double figures, it would be easy enough to control (assuming the govt actually tries new variants entering etc)

I understand that I'm not an expert by any means, I'm not trying to be a mouthpiece for big pharma or anything like that, but I have been following the research with interest since the beginning of this whole hoohaa so at least am hopefully able to help alleviate some of the concerns that people rightfully have.
Thanks for the input on the autoimmunity front Biobee. I appreciate having an opportunity to bounce my ideas of other tecchies here :D
I absolutely agree with you and LyndaR that vaccine is the best way to go at the moment. At least it offers some way of gradually getting us back to normal.
I also realise, like many others, that there is a lot of money to be made if you are first one out of the gate in the vaccine race. And the trust in the government isn't exactly at all times high. I think that makes many people cautious. When big bucks and public health collide I wonder what will prevail.
Everyone wants the vaccine to be safe and successful, but with so much riding on it, if things go pear shaped, they might go pear shaped in a spectacularly bad way.
 
Thanks for the input on the autoimmunity front Biobee. I appreciate having an opportunity to bounce my ideas of other tecchies here :D
I absolutely agree with you and LyndaR that vaccine is the best way to go at the moment. At least it offers some way of gradually getting us back to normal.
I also realise, like many others, that there is a lot of money to be made if you are first one out of the gate in the vaccine race. And the trust in the government isn't exactly at all times high. I think that makes many people cautious. When big bucks and public health collide I wonder what will prevail.
Everyone wants the vaccine to be safe and successful, but with so much riding on it, if things go pear shaped, they might go pear shaped in a spectacularly bad way.
For sure! Personally I have 0% trust in any govt and 90% trust in science :p I agree that so much can go pearshaped however perhaps that will make them more cautious in whatever they do! Theres also the factor that this whole covid research stuff is very open and transparent as well as being collaborative around the world so for anyone to purposely skew results for example, it would be exeedingly hard to attempt any sort of coverup

If I was a big pharma company I would know that rushing something out without it being safe would have crippling impact on my business and me as CEO so it would be in big pharmas own personal interest for the thing to work as well as they can make it work, and to ensure its as safe as it possibly can be.
 
For sure! Personally I have 0% trust in any govt and 90% trust in science :p I agree that so much can go pearshaped however perhaps that will make them more cautious in whatever they do! Theres also the factor that this whole covid research stuff is very open and transparent as well as being collaborative around the world so for anyone to purposely skew results for example, it would be exeedingly hard to attempt any sort of coverup

If I was a big pharma company I would know that rushing something out without it being safe would have crippling impact on my business and me as CEO so it would be in big pharmas own personal interest for the thing to work as well as they can make it work, and to ensure its as safe as it possibly can be.
To be honest, the Big Pharma's self-interest when it comes to profit making, is the main reason I trust well known and established companies will not offer a vaccine unless they are sure no massive PR crisis will come out of it :x

Mind you...company that produced Thalidomide is still exists, so there's that...

And only 90% trust in science Biobee?! :shocked:
 
To be honest, the Big Pharma's self-interest when it comes to profit making, is the main reason I trust well known and established companies will not offer a vaccine unless they are sure no massive PR crisis will come out of it :x

Mind you...company that produced Thalidomide is still exists, so there's that...

And only 90% trust in science Biobee?! :shocked:
sorry I should say, 98% in research, 82% trust in pharma companies which averages at 90% :p
 
my HOD's mum had the vaccine, and she was so unwell from it, she went into the hospital, and apparently caught the blasted covid from there. her husband who didnt even go to the hospital caught it from her when she came home and as HOD is looking after his parents while working from home, he has caught it too... still unsure if it was the vaccine that caused her to be really unwell, or that she was carrier for covid before the vaccine. I suppose it's going to affect everyone differently.
People need to realise it takes about 3 weeks for vaccine to kick in. So in this time they can still catch Covid. Also they can be exposed to Covid & be 'incubating' it for up to 2 weeks before they get symptoms. so not necessarily vaccine making people ill or giving them Covid.
A teacher here said a friends father became ill with Covid from vaccine. On further questioning ( I'm like a dog with a bone!) he became ill with Covid the day of vaccine. Now call me what you like, but I simply don't believe it was the vaccine.
An old Aunt used to swear Flu vaccine gave her flu, wouldn't entertain fact that she may have caught it before she had injection, or understand that no vaccine is 100%
Another thing is people tend to relax & let down their guard when they know they have a vaccine coming up. They may think they are being careful still, a psychologist could explain this much better than I!
 
an understandable concern to be sure, while im not an expert either, here is what I have gathered so far:

As with any vaccine of similar construction, the immune response is only triggered when exposed to something it doesn't recognise. Yes, these vaccines have the small section of code to allow it into our cell but thats only the caps, the center section is still different enough to trigger the response. The cells are not triggered by the human coded section, these only allow the rna to be injested as seen in the video I linked.

So in my mind at least, there is no chance of this causing an autoimmune issue because our immune system is not going to conflate the human coded section with the virus, put two and two together and start attacking anything with the same coded section.

There is of course, an issue in people who already have compromised immune systems or autoimmune disorders but I am sure alternative vaccine types are already being worked on (similar to how folks allergic to egg can get vaccines that are different than those made using egg etc), but for now it still makes sense to give everyone the mRNA vaccines who are safe to receive them. These alternative vaccines may take years and may become the ones that people in vulnerable groups get as annual boosters, same as the flu jab, but for now I'm over the moon that we even have two on the go already.

Yes I'm not an expert, yes there is still possibility of it all going t*ts up, so I understand the concerns raised, however I also feel that is important to have hope, and to take the chance, as its the only option we have for now and I would personally rather take the risk than go another year of lockdown-yo-yo-ing.

Even if the vaccine only lasts us six months, if its six months of safety to be able to see our loved ones and friends again without risk for that time, I am taking it. Even if it was only a week, if someone came to me and said 'you can have this vaccine but it will only protect you for a week' i'd take it just to be able to go and see people to recharge the mental health batteries before going back to isolation.

A more hopeful view though is that even if it only lasts 6 months or whatever, if everyone gets it and the cases drop to near zero then so will the R number meaning that the cases will be managable and now that we know more about the virus and are able to trace better (within reason, lol), I feel like if the daily totals came down to double figures, it would be easy enough to control (assuming the govt actually tries new variants entering etc)

I understand that I'm not an expert by any means, I'm not trying to be a mouthpiece for big pharma or anything like that, but I have been following the research with interest since the beginning of this whole hoohaa so at least am hopefully able to help alleviate some of the concerns that people rightfully have.
When asked if I have any allergies I always mention my Bee & Wasp sting allergy, Chloramphenicol, & Fabric plasters. Not that I think Wasp or Bee stings are used in anything, but you never know!
When I asked a Dr this he said you really never can tell what is used in the manufacture of anything, so always best to mention EVERY kind of reaction or allergy. Theatre staff had a good laugh at me saying bee stings when I was being wheeled into theatre. Said they'd try to ensure no bees got into Op Theatre. :laughing:
 
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